....Spawn Camping....

[Rally Pig]

Can someone please explain something to me , yes i rage quit....and im sure things were said so ...anyways....when at both doors there's sticky's and a level 1 sentry the beginning of the round how is that not spawn camping? is the demomen not going to put more stickies down after he blows up the first set? is that sentry just going to disappear??? o yea and the 1 or 2 snipers watching the spawn doors?

on gravel pit we have asked several times for soldiers and demomen not to rocket/sticky jump to blue spawn at the beginning of the round....so that is spawn camping but nothing else is? i think this needs to be addressed and to make sure everyone's on the same page cause apparently we're not...(and it seems like peoples ideas of it tend to change when they're on the team that's doing it or not)

cause im sorry i see spawn camping is at ANY POINT in time if there's someone waiting for people to come out of the door whether beginning of round or not, and if i cant make it out of spawn without getting raped....I know there's certain maps like pipeline where at a certain point there's no way around it and that's one thing, gold rush and some of those other maps are different because there's a little area between spawn and the battlements....

[Video_Master]

I know that things were getting heated when I came in tonight and the map was Jailbreak.  Jailbreak is a bad map cause that is just how it is at the beginning.  There is no little area and if you let the people come out a little that is part of the map gone.  Maybe we need to get rid of jailbreak from the server so that does not happen again.

[Smurfette]

Ya know - I have always been told it is not spawn camping at the beginning of a round.  That is what we ALWAYS do!  We can not draw a line in the sand and forbid ppl to cross it.  If we start telling ppl they can not stand at spawn at the beginning of a round, then we will hear nothing but bitching all the time and loose a lot of regulars on the server!  It is part of the game, getting out the door.  That is why you have ubers.  I'm sorry, but yes I totally disagree with you on this.  I was on blue earlier that night and we got raped ourselves, and yes it was ridiculous, but the reason was because our team was not working together to push forward.  It presents a challenge to the game.  I would rather have a challenge than to just walk out the spawn doors and roll over the other team every time cause they "let us" walk out!  I think we should consider the rule of spawn camping as, don't go past the cart, or the point once it is taken!  If the cart moves forward, don't rebuild beyond that cart.  As for cp maps, not sure how we could enforce that, but something along the same general idea. 

[DEATHHAVEN]

well I disagree with the no spawn camping rule and think that people should change class and get rid of the threat instead of bitching about things not being fair.I like using all viable tactics to eliminate the threat of losing a map including sitting on a spawn while ubered.Hell all you have to do is change class wait a second and kill me. Not that hard to do imo.

[SConforti]

Its part of the map.  Lets all sit back at the first point and wait for everyone to get there!

[Rally Pig]

Its not the point of offensive team cant leave spawn scon your looking past what im saying, How can we say no spawn camping as an entire server rule but then sit back and say well its this map its ok, either the rule needs to get dropped all together or we need to define it as a "clan" EX: (as smurfette brought up)on gold rush at the beginning has always seemed like at the beginning the cart was the line, yes its difficult to draw lines in CP cause you cant say hey you cant go past X point....

So are we just enforcing this as a PL map rule or an entire server rule? IDC if i have to push out IDC if spawn camping occurs IDC if i have to start B.... Slapping most the medics to start ubering people at the beginning since they tend to run away, its the fact that its stated when you enter the server NO SPAWN CAMPING....that's all I'm getting at

[Giant Flying Head]

Jailbreak is a bad example. That first point, it's very narrow.

[SConforti]

Someone needs to write a definition of what Spawn Camping is and what it isn't and when its allowed and when its not allowed...

[Hitman Smurf]

A lot of maps have the defenders attacking right at the gate. A lot of maps are like that and it's a valid tactic, to a point, to do that to reduce the offens' time available for the stage. I think our definition of spawn camping is to vague. If a demo and medic are standing right outside the spawn doors with stickies killing everyone that comes out that's one thing. Hitting the opposing team out fo the gate is another. I say, break your way outta spawn and get over it. This rule is causing too many problems. We should discuss it at the meeting I think.

[Baltika (#9)]

Since I probably won't make the meeting, I'll toss in my thoughts...

(and these are all IMO):
1.  Camping should be defined as:
Closely positioning yourself in a stationary (or nearly stationary) position, or a trap, outside the doors of the opposing teams spawn in a way that prevents the opposing team from having a chance (non-ubered) to exit their spawn.

2.  Running by the opposing team's spawn to look for (and destroy) buildings should be legal.  Attacking anyone that comes out of spawn while destroying buildings should be legal.  If there are no buildings, or valid targets outside of spawn, you should move yourself such that you're not in the vicinity of the door.

3.  On attack/defend maps, Red should be able to camp Blu, but Blu should not be able to camp Red.

4.  On PL maps (but not PLR), Red should be able to camp Blu until Blu has gotten the cart to the first point.

5.  On traditional CP maps (symmetrical), neither team should be able to camp.

6.  The reason I feel the way I do about spawn camping is the fun factor.  It's no fun to be on Red with the high respawn times and get camped by an uber-pyro on Goldrush stage 2.  As Blu, with the quick respawn times, it's not so bad to get uber-pyro camped.

7.  It's like porn, you know it when you see it.

[SConforti]

haha I love how porn got into the conversation!

[Spevf]

The only major issues I have e with spawn camping is this. When on the Red/Defending team Blue team sits outside your spawn and camps. On a map where you are defending you spawn less often than those who are attacking. One thing that is OK to do is have a spy come by and sap all the teleporters.

On another note I to agree we should get rid of jailbreak. I like that map but I also see it will cause issues at the same time.

[Luggage]

I am very conflicted on spawn camping - a part of me understands it is frustrating and have often seen teams rage quit because of it.  However, it is a legit strategy and it's challenges like these that make you a better player.

With good demos and a couple of ubered heavy/pyros - spawn camps are easy to defeat...of course that requires a high degree of team-work and co-ordination which doesn't often happen in a Pub...so with a heavy heart I agree with Baltika's definitions...

[Spevf]

Now we just need to get people working together on maps. That's a problem as well.

[Rally Pig]

Since I probably won't make the meeting, I'll toss in my thoughts...

(and these are all IMO):
1.  Camping should be defined as:
Closely positioning yourself in a stationary (or nearly stationary) position, or a trap, outside the doors of the opposing teams spawn in a way that prevents the opposing team from having a chance (non-ubered) to exit their spawn.

2.  Running by the opposing team's spawn to look for (and destroy) buildings should be legal.  Attacking anyone that comes out of spawn while destroying buildings should be legal.  If there are no buildings, or valid targets outside of spawn, you should move yourself such that you're not in the vicinity of the door.

3.  On attack/defend maps, Red should be able to camp Blu, but Blu should not be able to camp Red.

4.  On PL maps (but not PLR), Red should be able to camp Blu until Blu has gotten the cart to the first point.

5.  On traditional CP maps (symmetrical), neither team should be able to camp.

6.  The reason I feel the way I do about spawn camping is the fun factor.  It's no fun to be on Red with the high respawn times and get camped by an uber-pyro on Goldrush stage 2.  As Blu, with the quick respawn times, it's not so bad to get uber-pyro camped.

7.  It's like porn, you know it when you see it.

I can deal with that....and does work for the server...I like jail break but with 32 people the first cp is very cramped...and. I'm sorry to those who had to deal with me last night

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