Spawn camping, legal?

[Gumby]

I think spawn camping would be if you can repeatedly die by standing in the only exit out of a spawn or a blind exit, you're getting camped.  A demo taking out teleporters and leaving the area is not spawn camping.  A spy backstabbing people is not spawn camping.

Passing through the other team's spawn has long since been decided to be just honkey dorry with everyone.  The issue at hand is to determine whether a spy sitting outside of spawn, camping there, or Spawn Camping, is permissible.  The general concensus is that yes, spys can do that because they're just a 1-shot trick, whereas pretty much any other class is going to be able to do massive damage by themselves.

The mod just has too much potential for abuse with snipers, soldiers, and demomen.  It's a good concept, but people can and will abuse the hell out of it.

[Hitman Smurf]

I think taking an all or none stance to spawn camping is just silly, it's not considering the way different classes play.

Exactly.

[Frag_68]

I was first defining spawn camping, which led to the conclusion that a spy cannot spawn camp and it should be allowed.  Without a clear, agreed concept of what spawn camping is or isn't, there will continue to be disagreements and frustrations.

Spawn camping (v):  to have the possibility exist of repeated death by standing in the only exit out of a spawn or a blind exit (i.e. a door that can not be seen through)

Therefore, a spy that lurks at spawn but is not killing people as the door opens like a demo with stickies might, is not camping.

[Taso]

Yeah i agree with Frag, because of the simple fact that it is JUST a spy, the most he's gonna is backstab 2 people at most before getting chased by smurfette   But i obviously don't agree with heavy/medic sitting outside or demo putting stikcies on the door.

Oh and a side note, for most spies to get to the enemy spawn is rather difficult and then on top of that staying near spawn with the cloak and dagger or something. Just my 2 cents.

[Giant Flying Head]

Listen guys, no matter how you slice it, killing someone as they're coming out of spawn and setting up to do it a second or more times, is spawn camping! You know you're wrong, stop trying to make excuses to justify your actions. This why there will be constant arguments in this area. There are people here that don't like the no spawn camping rule and find excuses to keep on camping. I really think everyone would be happier without the rule for a while to remind them of why it was put there in the first place. No one likes being camped! Weather they are morons or not. It's a harder thing to deal with then people seem to think!

[Luggage]

 

[Mustard]

You know you're wrong, stop trying to make excuses to justify your actions.

Wow, that's quite the statement GFH. I don't think that I am wrong, which is why I stated my opinion on the matter. Though it differs from your own, I assure you that it is, in fact, my opinion. I wasn't arguing about spawn camping in general, just that of the specific case of the spy. The spy plays different than any other class and it comes with its own strengths and weaknesses. One thing about the spy is that you generally have to be behind a person to kill them.

Generally this done by using misdirection and surprise. The thing is, what's the difference between stabbing someone just out of spawn, and waiting for them to walk across half the map and stabbing them right before they get into battle? I think I'd rather have the former, since at least I didn't walk all that way before getting my ass stabbed. And if I did get stabbed out of spawn, I think I'd do well to spycheck on my next spawn.

I think it's a very valid (and legal) spy tactic. If you stab someone out of spawn  you are using surprise to your advantage. Not only that, but it's very easy to defend against. Also, generally speaking, even a good spy can't keep that tactic up for very long. If they're smart they get one or two licks in and go elsewhere, since the gig is kinda up at that point.

Again, I'm not arguing for any other kind of spawn camping, just in the case of the spy since it's a class based on careful stalking. Usually I don't even bother going that far back in a map, too long of a walk, too much of a PITA. But I have used it and I think it's valid for that specific class.

And I assure you, that is my full and wholehearted opinion on the matter, which I feel is fully right and justified.

[Giant Flying Head]

It takes a far much more skill to not use the spawn stab. So I say to you, don't be a NOOB!

[Frag_68]

It takes a far much more skill to not use the spawn stab. So I say to you, don't be a NOOB!

I always thought a backstab required the same amount of skill anywhere in the map.  Silly me, Valve made targetting of backsides more difficult near spawns?

Goldrush, stage 1, blue spies crawl around red spawn.  GFH, what is the exact distance from the spawn door at which it is no longer camping?  Or is it time based, like 3 seconds out the door?  Is it turn based... does the spawner have to fire their weapon once before you can kill them?

If anyone is going to argue a point, you have to do it by clearly defining the point you're arguing. Spawn camping has yet to be defined by anyone other than me.  So the other side of the argument doesn't know themselves what spawn camping is and at which point a player can kill another without it being spawn camping.

[SConforti]

so if I'm a demo, on the blue team on gold rush, and rush past the red spawn doors, drop 5-6 sticky's and run for a few more seconds and BLOW them only 1 time and do not sit there and resticky the doors, it is allowed??? Excellent!

[Luggage]

we had the same discussion last year...

http://theelders.net/forum/index.php?topic=7670.0

Look at Baltika's definitions -- I think they are very good.

[Hitman Smurf]

It actually takes more skill to get to spawn as a spy then to stab on the front lines. Besides, spies always come from behind and it is often necessary to move to spawn to affect that tactic. I often decloak near spawn to appear as a respawn of someone who just died as I keep track of who died and what class they are for this very reason. It's a valid tactic that I have perfected from long hours of spy play. I also often stab someone at spawn and steal their identity to make myself appear as having come from spwn after respawn, also very effective for me. If I happen to catch someone out of spawn then so be it. I'm not changing the tactics I have develpoed because of a little whining. Back when this was a more more competitive server spawn camping was never even mentioned. It happened, people knew how to deal with it and they moved on.

[Mustard]

we had the same discussion last year...

http://theelders.net/forum/index.php?topic=7670.0

Look at Baltika's definitions -- I think they are very good.

And in that same thread Smurfette says (to my inquiry) that spy tactics don't count, and that was agreed upon within the clan.

/win

[kline]

I think spawn camping is spawn camping, be it demo + medic or lonely spy.  That said, I am actually in favor of spawn camping since it is a legit part of the game.

IMO, if your team gets spawn camped and keeps getting destroyed that's your own fault. Learn to play.

Although I never camp myself, I agree with Luggage and Hitman.

[kline]

The way I look at spawn camping, if you have the ability to keep me in spawn more than one death good on you, but good luck stopping me from switching to whatever counters and sending you back to your spawn, unless I'm being lazy that night.

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