The Elders' House of Pain
Server Forum => Team Fortress 2 Pub (72.5.152.147) => Topic started by: Gumby on September 06, 2010, 11:03:34 AM
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So I've heard conflicting stories about this from the admins.
Are Spies allowed to sit outside of the spawn waiting for people to come out and backstab them immediately after? I know they can take out the tele's and other stuff Engies are setting up, but I've gotten myself killed a few times because I didn't want to kill any of them right outside their spawn.
So I want the TE members to weigh in here. Do the same rules apply to Spies that go for everyone else, or can I sit outside of Smurfette's spawn, and wait for her to come out so I don't have to waste time and stare at that heavy's ass while I wait for her to get far enough away?
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I stand at spawn and stab people. If a pyro can't come out and puff the area to look for me or someone can't switch for two seconds to do so, the entire team deserves to get stabbed. It's not like it's a medic+demo putting stickies on the door.
It's one guy....with a knife.
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I think spawn camping is spawn camping, be it demo + medic or lonely spy. That said, I am actually in favor of spawn camping since it is a legit part of the game.
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Spawn camping has always been a heated issue in the clan. That being said it was desided by the majority of the clan that any class doing it is still doing it. So that means stay out!
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I think there's a huge difference between making passes at the spawn area vs. parking yourself at the door waiting for people to come out. IE, sapping teleporters and killing the engineers that try to save them is okay. Heavy+Medic sitting in a corner blasting anything that walks out is not. I'm also okay with ubering someone to wipe out all the engineers' hard work or killing off medics, but when the uber runs out the pair should be out of the spawn area.
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This is one issue Hitman and I have always agreed on.
I think it's difficult to make a uniform definition of what's right an what's wrong in spawn camping. To me, it seems like common sense that a spy is ok, and heavy+medic is not, being that there's a world of difference there in terms of survivability and destructive force.
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What if we put this on
http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?t=65094
and forget about spawn camping altogether?
This plugin defends against some common server problems such as spawn killing and camping. All features can be easily disabled if you don't want it on. Spawn killing is prevented by simply blocking the damage from happening, protected players will be a different color. They will be protected for a length of time and/or until they travel outside of 'x' feet from their spawn. The anti-camp module is completely customisable, you can change how long the player has to be camping to begin punishment, the severity of the punishment, and much more. The new integration into the SourceMod menu to enable or disable any features easily while in-game enhances the ease-of-use of this plugin.
It actually detects spawn camping, so i think it would be perfect.
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mod is in concept a good idea, but I think will be an issue in some maps where camping is totally legit strategy for red, e.g., payload maps
separately, if spy spawn camping is ok, is sniper ok as well? why not sentries then since they can be easily taken out with a single uber or half-decent demo/soldier/heavy?
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Maybe the spawn camping detection is too much - but at least spawn protection would help out a bit.
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IMO, if your team gets spawn camped and keeps getting destroyed that's your own fault. Learn to play.
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I like crazydog's plugin idea. If you can't get out of spawn, you can't play... so then what is the point of being there.
I play CS more now because of this mess. In fact cs or gungame had something like this and it worked.
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mod is in concept a good idea, but I think will be an issue in some maps where camping is totally legit strategy for red, e.g., payload maps
separately, if spy spawn camping is ok, is sniper ok as well? why not sentries then since they can be easily taken out with a single uber or half-decent demo/soldier/heavy?
The issue (at least for me), is that if I die as soon as I step out of spawn, I'm not having fun. If a sniper doesn't have to re-aim, if a demo doesn't have to move - it's not fun. It's not my fault, I had no chance to react, and I have to sit in spawn for another 15 seconds.
Having to build an uber in spawn, to get out of spawn is ridiculous. On most maps, if you have to do this, you're fucked. All because some asshat demo sticky jumped past all the sentries and stickied the lone exit...
If this was a hyper-competitive server, and it was posted as allowed, I'd be fine with it.
But since we have some people that only know how press the mic button when they want to spam their favorite song, and it's posted as not-allowed - it's not allowed.
As for the spy vs. any other class debate...
I'm going to have to side with the spy (in my opinion).
The spy isn't going to kill everything that comes out of spawn, as soon as it comes out of spawn.
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The issue (at least for me), is that if I die as soon as I step out of spawn, I'm not having fun. If a sniper doesn't have to re-aim, if a demo doesn't have to move - it's not fun. It's not my fault, I had no chance to react, and I have to sit in spawn for another 15 seconds.
Having to build an uber in spawn, to get out of spawn is ridiculous. On most maps, if you have to do this, you're fucked. All because some asshat demo sticky jumped past all the sentries and stickied the lone exit...
If this was a hyper-competitive server, and it was posted as allowed, I'd be fine with it.
But since we have some people that only know how press the mic button when they want to spam their favorite song, and it's posted as not-allowed - it's not allowed.
As for the spy vs. any other class debate...
I'm going to have to side with the spy (in my opinion).
The spy isn't going to kill everything that comes out of spawn, as soon as it comes out of spawn.
Agreed here and with Disco. :mrgreen:
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I think spawn camping would be if you can repeatedly die by standing in the only exit out of a spawn or a blind exit, you're getting camped. A demo taking out teleporters and leaving the area is not spawn camping. A spy backstabbing people is not spawn camping.
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separately, if spy spawn camping is ok, is sniper ok as well? why not sentries then since they can be easily taken out with a single uber or half-decent demo/soldier/heavy?
Because of the nature of how one plays spy, it's impossible to kill everyone that comes out. If multiple people come out at the same time, maybe one of them will get hit. And if that person doesn't spy check the next time they die, they deserve their death cause they suck ass. A sentry kills a lot more people and can't be defended against nearly as easily. I think taking an all or none stance to spawn camping is just silly, it's not considering the way different classes play.
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I think spawn camping would be if you can repeatedly die by standing in the only exit out of a spawn or a blind exit, you're getting camped. A demo taking out teleporters and leaving the area is not spawn camping. A spy backstabbing people is not spawn camping.
Passing through the other team's spawn has long since been decided to be just honkey dorry with everyone. The issue at hand is to determine whether a spy sitting outside of spawn, camping there, or Spawn Camping, is permissible. The general concensus is that yes, spys can do that because they're just a 1-shot trick, whereas pretty much any other class is going to be able to do massive damage by themselves.
The mod just has too much potential for abuse with snipers, soldiers, and demomen. It's a good concept, but people can and will abuse the hell out of it.
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I think taking an all or none stance to spawn camping is just silly, it's not considering the way different classes play.
Exactly.
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I was first defining spawn camping, which led to the conclusion that a spy cannot spawn camp and it should be allowed. Without a clear, agreed concept of what spawn camping is or isn't, there will continue to be disagreements and frustrations.
Spawn camping (v): to have the possibility exist of repeated death by standing in the only exit out of a spawn or a blind exit (i.e. a door that can not be seen through)
Therefore, a spy that lurks at spawn but is not killing people as the door opens like a demo with stickies might, is not camping.
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Yeah i agree with Frag, because of the simple fact that it is JUST a spy, the most he's gonna is backstab 2 people at most before getting chased by smurfette :P But i obviously don't agree with heavy/medic sitting outside or demo putting stikcies on the door.
Oh and a side note, for most spies to get to the enemy spawn is rather difficult and then on top of that staying near spawn with the cloak and dagger or something. Just my 2 cents.
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Listen guys, no matter how you slice it, killing someone as they're coming out of spawn and setting up to do it a second or more times, is spawn camping! You know you're wrong, stop trying to make excuses to justify your actions. This why there will be constant arguments in this area. There are people here that don't like the no spawn camping rule and find excuses to keep on camping. I really think everyone would be happier without the rule for a while to remind them of why it was put there in the first place. No one likes being camped! Weather they are morons or not. It's a harder thing to deal with then people seem to think!
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:iamwithstupid:
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You know you're wrong, stop trying to make excuses to justify your actions.
Wow, that's quite the statement GFH. I don't think that I am wrong, which is why I stated my opinion on the matter. Though it differs from your own, I assure you that it is, in fact, my opinion. I wasn't arguing about spawn camping in general, just that of the specific case of the spy. The spy plays different than any other class and it comes with its own strengths and weaknesses. One thing about the spy is that you generally have to be behind a person to kill them.
Generally this done by using misdirection and surprise. The thing is, what's the difference between stabbing someone just out of spawn, and waiting for them to walk across half the map and stabbing them right before they get into battle? I think I'd rather have the former, since at least I didn't walk all that way before getting my ass stabbed. And if I did get stabbed out of spawn, I think I'd do well to spycheck on my next spawn.
I think it's a very valid (and legal) spy tactic. If you stab someone out of spawn you are using surprise to your advantage. Not only that, but it's very easy to defend against. Also, generally speaking, even a good spy can't keep that tactic up for very long. If they're smart they get one or two licks in and go elsewhere, since the gig is kinda up at that point.
Again, I'm not arguing for any other kind of spawn camping, just in the case of the spy since it's a class based on careful stalking. Usually I don't even bother going that far back in a map, too long of a walk, too much of a PITA. But I have used it and I think it's valid for that specific class.
And I assure you, that is my full and wholehearted opinion on the matter, which I feel is fully right and justified.
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It takes a far much more skill to not use the spawn stab. So I say to you, don't be a NOOB!
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It takes a far much more skill to not use the spawn stab. So I say to you, don't be a NOOB!
I always thought a backstab required the same amount of skill anywhere in the map. Silly me, Valve made targetting of backsides more difficult near spawns?
Goldrush, stage 1, blue spies crawl around red spawn. GFH, what is the exact distance from the spawn door at which it is no longer camping? Or is it time based, like 3 seconds out the door? Is it turn based... does the spawner have to fire their weapon once before you can kill them?
If anyone is going to argue a point, you have to do it by clearly defining the point you're arguing. Spawn camping has yet to be defined by anyone other than me. So the other side of the argument doesn't know themselves what spawn camping is and at which point a player can kill another without it being spawn camping.
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so if I'm a demo, on the blue team on gold rush, and rush past the red spawn doors, drop 5-6 sticky's and run for a few more seconds and BLOW them only 1 time and do not sit there and resticky the doors, it is allowed??? Excellent!
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we had the same discussion last year...
http://theelders.net/forum/index.php?topic=7670.0
Look at Baltika's definitions -- I think they are very good.
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It actually takes more skill to get to spawn as a spy then to stab on the front lines. Besides, spies always come from behind and it is often necessary to move to spawn to affect that tactic. I often decloak near spawn to appear as a respawn of someone who just died as I keep track of who died and what class they are for this very reason. It's a valid tactic that I have perfected from long hours of spy play. I also often stab someone at spawn and steal their identity to make myself appear as having come from spwn after respawn, also very effective for me. If I happen to catch someone out of spawn then so be it. I'm not changing the tactics I have develpoed because of a little whining. Back when this was a more more competitive server spawn camping was never even mentioned. It happened, people knew how to deal with it and they moved on.
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we had the same discussion last year...
http://theelders.net/forum/index.php?topic=7670.0
Look at Baltika's definitions -- I think they are very good.
And in that same thread Smurfette says (to my inquiry) that spy tactics don't count, and that was agreed upon within the clan.
/win
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I think spawn camping is spawn camping, be it demo + medic or lonely spy. That said, I am actually in favor of spawn camping since it is a legit part of the game.
IMO, if your team gets spawn camped and keeps getting destroyed that's your own fault. Learn to play.
Although I never camp myself, I agree with Luggage and Hitman.
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The way I look at spawn camping, if you have the ability to keep me in spawn more than one death good on you, but good luck stopping me from switching to whatever counters and sending you back to your spawn, unless I'm being lazy that night. :P
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I dont give a FUCK who you are - member or non member! I dont give a fuck if this is in the private or public section!! If you spawn camp me - I WILL slay you! I refuse to let anyone get away with it. It is pure bullshit move and common courtious play should tell you that you don't want it to happen to you, so be fucking respectful to the other team and DON'T DO IT!! Have some respect for your teammates and opposite players!
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OK blah blah blah... its plain and simple some people don't like it some don't care I'm in-between play spy alot
simple fact some of the highest scoreing players are spys right now
i can see running thru and killing some people teles simple fact most spys can stay at spawn entire rounds killing people i know i have not rly all that hard on some of these maps
now i don't care all that often like its been said usually you can get a couple people to stop spawn camping
simple fact though were all grown ups all smart well hopefully most of us are if its pissing people off or your asked to stop well then STOP
I've seen people leave because of it goes to far... were a community server were not a hard core pro server plain and simple guys sure hard core its perfectly fine but thats not our server guys
wana sit at spawn for a little as a spy grab a couple people maybe take the tele to kill engie fine i do that but even i find it a little to much to stay entire rounds killing teams off because its rly not that hard
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Just to chime in cause I'm bored an figure might as well...
The only thing that bothers me is people who can't tell the difference between spawn camping and engaging enemies at spawn.
For the most part you guys get it right and smurfette who is the spawncamp czar i don't think you have ever gotten it wrong when I have been playing (at least by my own internal definition which granted everyone's is different).
Examples: If someone comes out of spawn while you are destroying teleporters, engaging them is NOT spawncamping.
Koth_sawmill if a sniper is standing IN THE DOORWAY sniping the point thru the side entrance, you need to engage everyone exiting spawn because otherwise that sniper can impact the capturing of the point without any danger. Same thing on koth_nucleus (but I think there is not really any debate about how flawed that map is in terms of encouraging spawncamping).
If someone is engaging you or influencing the "point/cart/etc" from the vicinity of spawn they are fair game.
If there is an engie upgrading teles or building his gun up to carry to the front lines after its fully upgraded he is fair game.
A Demo/Medic combo putting down crit stickies at the grate is not cool.
Another thing that is a grey area is the area considered spawn is not defined the same by everybody. Example: Gravelpit your spawn is the building with the supply cabinet, NOT the whole courtyard area, people i think should be allowed to engage in the tunnels.
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When I'm out for tele kill run, I'll always icnore anyone comming out of spawn till the tele's are down. The tele's are more important anyways. After that I'll try and make a get away, while tring to defend my ass. Just what I do. I can see when I'm playing pyro how that might look like spawn camping, since I'll be flamming the tele's. :dontknow:
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(http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/demotivational-posters-pedobear.jpg)
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I thought we went through this MONTHS AGO!!! i thought the ruling was PASSING through with uber to take out buildings near spawn and any sucker still there is game, once uber is done SEE YA GET THE HELL OUT!
someone running up to spawn and chilling there/ continuously shooting stickies or what not into spawn was a no no including spies just chilling there
and you cant automatically slay cause i believe we also stated that FIRST its a warning SECOND is a slay THIRD is a kick...i dont understand what we are missing here cause if we just start getting slay and kick happy who the hell is going to play in our servers?
i dont give a shit if we enforce or not but ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Admins need to be on the same page, we cannot have 1 get pissed and get kick happy, while the others are warning first
and to be honest ive been on late at night and had players surprised cause the admins on at the time arent kick/ slay happy and bitching about stupid shit and are layed back.....
THIS SHIT IS GETTING OLD SERIOUSLY...are we already forgetting how bad our server was not too far back and how hard it was to rebuild!?!? guess whats gunna happen if we cant all agree on shit....
WE ALL NEED TO CALM THE EFFF DOWN ITS AN EFFING GAME LETS WORRY MORE ABOUT A FUN PLAYING ENVIRONMENT, ITS A PUB SERVER NOT A FLIPPIN CEVO SERVER!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angelfire: *Steps off of soap box* NEXT!
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(http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/demotivational-posters-pedobear.jpg)
HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA *pisses self*
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i dont give a shit if we enforce or not but ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Admins need to be on the same page, we cannot have 1 get pissed and get kick happy, while the others are warning first
:notworthy:
This is what I'm looking for, just some sort of consensus. When I asked openly to the admins on the server if Spy's were allowed to (because a spy was doing it to me every once in a while), Smurfette said they were, LTK and someone else said they weren't.
I don't think Spawn Camping can be completely defined. Expecting someone to clearly define a length away from the door, a definite number of turns, that's just childish. We're supposed to be adults, so I say we act like it. You can tell where the team's spawn is on a map, and if you can't, use a little common sense and look where no one else is going.
In the spirit of making peace, I would like to make a wholehearted apology to Smurfette. When I said that I would wait for you and stab out right as you got out of spawn, I meant that as a joke. As a smartass, cynical asshole like me should know, sarcasm doesn't translate well in text.
So again I'll say this question, and I hope this time we can stick to the single topic, not take it out of context, not blow it out of proportion, and act like calm, considering adults. If someone wants to make their own topic about something similar but not exactly what I'm asking, then do it, but do it there, and leave this for a discussion, not an argument.
Are spy's exempt from the No Spawn Camping rule?
Just your opinion, and supporting facts. If you don't have anything to add beyond just trying to piss someone off, then please don't reply. I'm trusting that you guys should be able to think before you speak.
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I said they were cause we completely nixed the rules all together (which I personally think was bs, but w/e) and said it was ok for spys to stand at spawn. Idk wtf the rules are now. We have had this argument so many times it's insane!!!! I just know how I feel and what I will do if I catch it happening. You don't like it, sry bout your luck. Go play elsewhere. :thebirdman: Just my opinion!
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Has anyone put any thought into the spawn protection plugin?
6 seconds of spawn protection or 5 feet of protection from the point they spawn (whichever comes sooner) seems like it would be perfect.
http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?t=65094
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Sorry to be a bit off topic again, but a lot of us are new and weren't involved in any previous discussions. As such, we want to make sure we're in compliance with the clan's concept of what spawn camping is instead of having to cater to every admin's feelings. Even knowing the rules full well, I've been warned about spawn campiing when I'm going after teleporters and even kicked once for doing something other admins had also done.
So, yeah, the plugin was posted earlier. If you could do it as "whatever comes first"... wouldn't that help solve the issue??? Or then do we fall into what Gumby said and start arguing time and distance? :) The community needs consistency and I think this might help provide that.
Finally, I don't think this is something we should be blowing a gasket over because the funny thing is that not one of us would spawn camp.
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The plug in may work....but what at 10' or still within sight dist? some setup areas by spawn are kinda large cause im sure people who play a lot may pick up on the 6 sec thing and just run in and out of that "spawn box"...don't get me wrong spawn camping pisses me off too nothing is more aggravating than having to wait the full spawn time, go running out the door and get back stabbed right away, i know there was a thread posted MONTHS ago on what we somewhat agreed on about spawn camping i cont remember where it is/ went....
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You're slightly misunderstanding how it works.
Say we have the time set to 6 seconds, and the distance set to 10 feet. After 6 seconds, they lose the spawn protection, and don't regain it until they die and respawn. Similarly, If they move 10 feet from the spawn location, they lose their spawn protection until they respawn. It's not some kind of invinciblity sphere. Once they break a limited (time or diatance), they are vunerable until dead.
We can also set different settings for individual maps.
Whichever restriction is broken first breaks the spawn protection.
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I like. I presume we setup different settings for each individual map?
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I like. I presume we setup different settings for each individual map?
You presume correctly.
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gotcha makes more sense now, but maybe it should be brought up at a meeting? i know its difficult for me to make meetings due to my lovely schedule but like i said all admins need to be on the same page about kicking/ punishing, this way there is no questions and people get confused by a couple admins letting them get away with something yet the next night with a couple other admins against it...or if someone is having a bad day...you get the point, we at least have it down where if someone is banned/ kicked it is announced why over vent...
but like i keep saying I DONT CARE WHAT THE SERVER RULES ARE BUT ALL ADMINS...NOT A COUPLE....ALLLL....NEED TO KNOW THE RULES AND THEY ARE DEFINED SO WE CAN ALLL ENFORCE AT THE SAME LEVEL, IT DOESNT HELP WHEN PEOPLE DEFINE THE RULES THEMSELVES AND ENFORCE HOW THEY FEEL FIT.... OWNER, DONATOR, OR NOT WE NEED TO BE ON THE SAME PAGE.....this way non-TE regs, people passing through dont sit there and go crap these admins are on so i dont wanna play yet this admin that comes on later doesnt give a crap what i do
and yea theres a reason i repeated my self twice in the same post
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I shall bring it up in the next meeting.
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but like i keep saying I DONT CARE WHAT THE SERVER RULES ARE BUT ALL ADMINS...NOT A COUPLE....ALLLL....NEED TO KNOW THE RULES AND THEY ARE DEFINED SO WE CAN ALLL ENFORCE AT THE SAME LEVEL, IT DOESNT HELP WHEN PEOPLE DEFINE THE RULES THEMSELVES AND ENFORCE HOW THEY FEEL FIT.... OWNER, DONATOR, OR NOT WE NEED TO BE ON THE SAME PAGE.....this way non-TE regs, people passing through dont sit there and go crap these admins are on so i dont wanna play yet this admin that comes on later doesnt give a crap what i do
I couldn't agree more, but there are members here that are "I'm gonna do it my way and there is NO such thing as compromise". So we will NEVER have common ground on this issue. This is another reason why I think the whole rule should be axed! That way we can stop fighting over it.
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gotcha makes more sense now, but maybe it should be brought up at a meeting? i know its difficult for me to make meetings due to my lovely schedule but like i said all admins need to be on the same page about kicking/ punishing, this way there is no questions and people get confused by a couple admins letting them get away with something yet the next night with a couple other admins against it...or if someone is having a bad day...you get the point, we at least have it down where if someone is banned/ kicked it is announced why over vent...
but like i keep saying I DONT CARE WHAT THE SERVER RULES ARE BUT ALL ADMINS...NOT A COUPLE....ALLLL....NEED TO KNOW THE RULES AND THEY ARE DEFINED SO WE CAN ALLL ENFORCE AT THE SAME LEVEL, IT DOESNT HELP WHEN PEOPLE DEFINE THE RULES THEMSELVES AND ENFORCE HOW THEY FEEL FIT.... OWNER, DONATOR, OR NOT WE NEED TO BE ON THE SAME PAGE.....this way non-TE regs, people passing through dont sit there and go crap these admins are on so i dont wanna play yet this admin that comes on later doesnt give a crap what i do
and yea theres a reason i repeated my self twice in the same post
:iamwithstupid:
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This is another reason why I think the whole rule should be axed! That way we can stop fighting over it.
:iamwithstupid:
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:iamwithstupid:
Certainly worth taking a vote on. I humbly ask that all TE kindly respect the majority opinion, regardless of personal feelings on the topic.
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Okay... Someone needs to fix this. I was an engineer on blue. Cobalt was a heavy on Red. Cobalt managed to take out my teleporter @ spawn 3 times because our team failed to clear the tele in Dustbowl_b4 stage 3 in the attic. So... he gets kicked because he'd "been warned"???? Come on. Even though I was mad that I lost my tele, Cobalt did nothing wrong. He wasn't camping the spawn, he was taking out the tele and then backing off.
You can't kick someone just for taking out teles. Yes, I'm talking to you, GFH. The very man that said the spawn camping rule should be axed.
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The camping rule is still in. So I was inforcing it. Also I do think the rule is there for a reason. I think it should come down so people remember WHY we put it in in the first place. As for this incident, coming down to spawn as heavy with medic in hand, shooting AT spawn doors counts as spawn camping. He got slayed. Then he goes down there again! Sorry, he wasn't there to get teles. He was just doing that to kill time while waiting for people. He was NOT backing off. On a second note, I didn't kick him. That was another member that was also getting pissed about that guy ALWAYS at spawn. On a second note, it was a kick! Get over it! It's not like he was raged at and perma banned. He was quite calmly told he was spawn camping, then HE raged!
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We need to take this discussion private and figure it out or drop it all.